Quark Games forums

Wasjoel, what you have experienced is common. Your crown does not trust you, so do you. That's why he/she took advantages on you. He/she knows you may leave at any time. So the only choice for her is to use you to expand herself. I have one example that is even worse. A crown suddenly switched to the enemy side. When his old followers were upset and became disorganized and inactive, he took their cities and became a top five player in the world. Who want to be the fools to be loyal to them?

So the relationship among guild members are mostly superficial because switching side is common. I see that "loyalty" only exists in guilds that are strong enough to expand. When a previously strong guild now faces a stronger enemy, members' loyalty to the guild suddenly disappears. All players who are stupid enough to loyal to a weak guild have been eliminated. No one remembers the history how things have happened. They only remember the current score board and who are at the top. Heroes are forgotten and villains prevail. As I said, loyalty in Valor is fake. sodastereo, I do agree with you on your comment about loyalty in Valor - it is only about survival.

So much dark side of human nature is revealed. Cheaters win in the end. I rarely see true "valor" in the game. But I see more bad behaviors in the game for one week than those I have seen in real life for a year. Playing Valor is like reading a tragedy for me. The only reason I still stay in the game is to complete my user behavior study of the game and on the side to joyfully observe the destruction of one of my old enemies (yeah, my little dark side as well...)

think I am overreacting? I get told Don't attack this or that city yet; only to see my crown has captured the city for themselves 12 hours later. I get told don't attack anyone from this guild yet (even though we are at war with them) only to see the crown(s) capturing their cities for themselves. I am limited to barbs and inactivates, while the crown(s) take 40k cities without even losing any troops. losing troops is for fools like me. IT IS TIME FOR A REVOLUTION!

By the way, i am thinking about leaving the guild and destroying its crown(s) just for fun. I have easily enough firepower if I am fast enough. I know what time of day she/they are asleep. I will be wiped out by the other members of course, and probably quit valor for good. but it would be way satisfying. Imagine the fireworks!

i am about to show my lack of loyalty by leaving my guild. not that we aren't strong we are. but the crowns(s) want us to do all the hard work clearing cities for them and we just have to watch as their score rise meteorically as we nurse our wounds from loss of troops. If you want loyalty earn it. i have over 20 cities and work harder than anyone. I am continuously expected to sacrifice for my crowns in the name of teamwork. Do they do the same for us? what do you think? If you want loyalty guys, be fair and earn it. I have had enough of being bossed around by players I could crush in one night if it wasn't for their status.

Yes, Destroyer75. I also wish a lot of things. But human nature is hard to gauge. The key is to increase competition but not to decrease it. Human nature will always want to decrease it. Please do not make this game a version of "monopoly". There should be some rules.

Another idea I have is to apply a similar rule as US antitrust law. For example, when a top guild is too big and too superior than the immediate next one. They cannot ally with another big guild, or they cannot invite other strong players, or a lock-down period for other players to join them - something like that. If in the end, such big guild can still dominate the world, then that shows their skills. But a guild should not achieve world-domination by simply adding strong players.

Then people would just group off saying stuff like hey want to be allies or would you like to join this group ext. ext. And back to randb what I'm saying is that people should be loyal although there not and in a very few cases they should not be loyal but if a guild helps you you should help them back by not quitting on them

How about one world in which no guilds were allowed? It would be every player for themselves.

sodastereo,

What you described, for me, is at tactical level of guild management. On a grander level, if more than half of top 20 players in a world are gathered in one guild, and this guild and another allied guild are the top three guilds in the world, no one can challenge them. Sure they will have sound sleeps and no sniper attacks can affect them. Maybe I haven't experienced many worlds, but this is what I have observed. Once into this kind of state, such world is already dead, in my opinion.

[quote="randb"]No. Guild members are not bound by nationalities or anything like that. Loyalty to a guild is fake in Valor. MOST members consider survival first, staying with a guild the second.

I am talking about most players, not a special one like you who are willing to sacrifice yourself for your guild. Follow what you have said - yes, in this game, traitors are many and they tip off balance of powers easily and ruin the game. BTW, how many players have ever thought about whether he/she is in a strong guild? - Almost everyone. So the end result is a FACT. As the title says, "Valor environment is an oligarchy". How can the company make money in an oligarchy environment?

My point is for a bigger issue of business model from game mechanics, with general player behavior consideration. The loyalty part is just a small part of it. BTW, I studied a little bit of social games and their business models and I just want the company to know what I have found out through playing the game.[/quote]

I think it's a very interesting point you bring. I think that you fail to realize that loyalty is not a hard coded value. It's not something tangible or measurable. Loyalty is and has always been through ages about surviving. Individuals survive and thrive in large groups and lone wolves tend to windle and die. Loyalty to a group is no more than one's interest in surviving or expecting the group to survive. Betrayal is nothing more than realizing that the odds of surviving are better when joining a different army.

Spies thrive in the real world and Valor because they're adaptive. They've learned to exploit the system. The good ones will end up with the winning team regardless of what side they originally intended to play. The bad ones are caught, and executed. The consequences in Valor are no different than the consequences in live... If you're caught spying you're sure to be executed if you don't play your cards quick enough. If you can master the game.

I think your concept of oligarchy is a bit flawed when applied to Valor. Guilds are small, but that doesn't mean a single small group can dominate the landscape. You need allies, and sister guilds. That spreads your power thin. It makes you susceptible. Dominating a continent will require skill and if you have it, then you should be rewarded for it. The interesting mechanic about Valor is that any one can rise from the humble village to be a warlord and the great can fall if they're careless. It only takes a night of deep sleep to miss a trip wire and lose your stronghold, a sniped attack to render your army useless and your home open. The fun of Valor is that it's unforgiving...

Oligarchy generally means that the chosen few are safe holding power from their mighty thrones, but there is no such concept in Valor. It's a brutal and unforgiving world. The strong survive, but only as long as they stay awake.

[quote="Destroyer75"]Its just unloyal not very smart people no offence doing that if there really like that it's the guild leaders fault for getting tratiors[/quote]

No. Guild members are not bound by nationalities or anything like that. Loyalty to a guild is fake in Valor. MOST members consider survival first, staying with a guild the second.

I am talking about most players, not a special one like you who are willing to sacrifice yourself for your guild. Follow what you have said - yes, in this game, traitors are many and they tip off balance of powers easily and ruin the game. BTW, how many players have ever thought about whether he/she is in a strong guild? - Almost everyone. So the end result is a FACT. As the title says, "Valor environment is an oligarchy". How can the company make money in an oligarchy environment?

My point is for a bigger issue of business model from game mechanics, with general player behavior consideration. The loyalty part is just a small part of it. BTW, I studied a little bit of social games and their business models and I just want the company to know what I have found out through playing the game.