Anyone read the Art of War? Ideas on how to use the concepts in Valor?
http://suntzusaid.com
Sun Tsu's Art of War
Let's start with the first chapter: Laying Plans. Discuss!
I. LAYING PLANS
Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State.
It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.
The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.
These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.
Heaven signifies night and day, cold and heat, times and seasons.
Earth comprises distances, great and small; danger and security; open ground and narrow passes; the chances of life and death.
The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerely, benevolence, courage and strictness.
By method and discipline are to be understood the marshaling of the army in its proper subdivisions, the graduations of rank among the officers, the maintenance of roads by which supplies may reach the army, and the control of military expenditure.
These five heads should be familiar to every general: he who knows them will be victorious; he who knows them not will fail.
Therefore, in your deliberations, when seeking to determine the military conditions, let them be made the basis of a comparison, in this wise:--
(1) Which of the two sovereigns is imbued with the Moral law? (2) Which of the two generals has most ability? (3) With whom lie the advantages derived from Heaven and Earth? (4)
On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced? (5) Which army is stronger? (6) On which side are officers and men more highly trained? (7) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment?
By means of these seven considerations I can forecast victory or defeat.
The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts upon it, will conquer: let such a one be retained in command! The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it, will suffer defeat:--let such a one be dismissed!
While heading the profit of my counsel, avail yourself also of any helpful cir***stances over and beyond the ordinary rules.
According as the situations are favorable, one should modify one's plans.
All warfare is based on deception.
Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.
Now the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose.
I. LAYING PLANS
Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State.
It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.
The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.
These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.
Heaven signifies night and day, cold and heat, times and seasons.
Earth comprises distances, great and small; danger and security; open ground and narrow passes; the chances of life and death.
The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerely, benevolence, courage and strictness.
By method and discipline are to be understood the marshaling of the army in its proper subdivisions, the graduations of rank among the officers, the maintenance of roads by which supplies may reach the army, and the control of military expenditure.
These five heads should be familiar to every general: he who knows them will be victorious; he who knows them not will fail.
Therefore, in your deliberations, when seeking to determine the military conditions, let them be made the basis of a comparison, in this wise:--
(1) Which of the two sovereigns is imbued with the Moral law? (2) Which of the two generals has most ability? (3) With whom lie the advantages derived from Heaven and Earth? (4)
On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced? (5) Which army is stronger? (6) On which side are officers and men more highly trained? (7) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment?
By means of these seven considerations I can forecast victory or defeat.
The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts upon it, will conquer: let such a one be retained in command! The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it, will suffer defeat:--let such a one be dismissed!
While heading the profit of my counsel, avail yourself also of any helpful cir***stances over and beyond the ordinary rules.
According as the situations are favorable, one should modify one's plans.
All warfare is based on deception.
Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.
Now the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose.
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PheonixWolf
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I have a guy in my guild that mentioned Sun Tsu. I also read through the actual book, and this for a recap. Many strategies work, but of course since this is a game and the strategies are now posted for everyone to see; smart players will be more wary. So my personal opinion is to be creative, spontaneous, and always have contingencies. My other guild leaders agree with this and are quite good at adapting.
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PwnLaw
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LordHades77
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- Location: New York City
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PheonixWolf
- Lancer
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- Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:20 pm
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Daytonwaters
- Lancer
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:14 am
I was surprised to see this thread. One of the things that caused me to fall in love with this game is the ability to apply real-world principles of war. Of course, modern principles are an evolution of Sun Tsu's brilliant work, but i was greatly impressed by how this game allows a General to actually be a commander. Also, since we are dealing with REAL PEOPLE (players), leadership principles are equally important. Great tactics do not help a poor leader. A good leader, with a basic knowledge of principles of war, who knows the difference between strategy and tactics will find this game very rewarding. For those looking to develop those areas, this a fantastic bloodless exercise that carries some real value in life.
I've been playing for 11 months. One thing I have learned is that people with little or no values in the game, are very likely that way in life. You can't fake honor. Either you have or you don't. As much time as this game consumes, the real person emerges thru his play. That being said, it's just as likely those without such guidelines in their personal lives, will probably be very poor leaders, lousy followers and clueless tacticians. I like to call them PREY. They will eventually be cut from their herd. As in real life, being alone on the VALOR battlefield is a certain death sentence. So even DARWINISM has a role here.
A brief study online of the principles of war will help the non-military mind become a good tactician in this game. (MASS and ECONOMY OF FORCE are continually applicable here and greatly affect guild wars.)
What a great game and online community! Thanks for letting me chime in
I've been playing for 11 months. One thing I have learned is that people with little or no values in the game, are very likely that way in life. You can't fake honor. Either you have or you don't. As much time as this game consumes, the real person emerges thru his play. That being said, it's just as likely those without such guidelines in their personal lives, will probably be very poor leaders, lousy followers and clueless tacticians. I like to call them PREY. They will eventually be cut from their herd. As in real life, being alone on the VALOR battlefield is a certain death sentence. So even DARWINISM has a role here.
A brief study online of the principles of war will help the non-military mind become a good tactician in this game. (MASS and ECONOMY OF FORCE are continually applicable here and greatly affect guild wars.)
What a great game and online community! Thanks for letting me chime in
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Daytonwaters
- Lancer
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:14 am
One last thought. Someone alluded to this earlier. We have a saying in the Infantry - NO PLAN SURVIVES CONTACT. Actually, and leaders use that as a crutch because the other half of that goes IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR FAILING TO PLAN.
To borrow from Mike Caro, your plan is your bouy in the ocean. When it all goes bad, you have a basis from which to adapt and a PUBLISHED ENDSTATE (what victory looks like). Without it, you're just flailing against waves and will eventually be overcome.
Okay, my instructor flashback is over.
To borrow from Mike Caro, your plan is your bouy in the ocean. When it all goes bad, you have a basis from which to adapt and a PUBLISHED ENDSTATE (what victory looks like). Without it, you're just flailing against waves and will eventually be overcome.
Okay, my instructor flashback is over.
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