Guild world 2
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LordFirefall
- Posts: 1002
- Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:15 am
- Location: Montival
Not my point at all. No one is arguing that there are people richer than the other guy, that's life. Doc Joe can spend more than Janitor Tod, hasn't it been that way forever?
Nor is anyone saying how that money should be spent. If you want to toss 300.00 a week on strippers, your choice, likewise want to by some pixels go for it, you earned it.
My wife and I each have 6 figure incomes, however that doesn't mean I agree with throwing money out the door on pixels, but I hold no grudge to those that do. I've even done it here and now. Disposable is Disposable.
The point, however, is that Gold simply creates such a disadvantage that there is no way to level the playing field in the TBS worlds. I've yet to meet a gold spender that disagrees with that statement. If you think otherwise, then refute it as I'm interested in understanding how you think that gold does not create an advantage. I'm not concerned about the arguments that avoid the question such as "Oh I'm rich, me spend gold, its fair cause I'm rich oh la la", Think about it, even 5 people in a guild of 25 with two LC and 3 barbs in the early days of the world are a force that's difficult to stop, when non-spenders are still building their forge lvl 2 because they cant farm barbs anymore.
The bottom line is that Gold takes the skill out of the game, everyone knows it, even the gold spenders. Join a new world and see how fast you guys lose without spending any gold, when competing against those that do. I've done it as have others. Its disarmingly night and day! I've paid my way to the top of the world once and while it was a blast, there was no skill. I won because I bought the resources to create an army that was able to steam roll. By the time others caught up, I was so far ahead it was ridiculous.
As for the 1K and 5K worlds, yes the smaller the world the more dramatic the difference between gold and no gold (thanks for helping make my point in a different way), I generally do play 5K worlds, but Valor in their infinite wisdom decided to put all of us in a 1K world and I can't control/change that. But take a peak at Gw1 and 2, any in the top 20-25 that didn't spend a significant sum of gold (or get carried by those that did, by which I mean the players that don't use gold or a lot of it but are given time to grow because the rest of their guild uses a ton of it, so they can sit back and relax).
And let's be honest here, this certainly isn't real life, I'm sure you have spent plenty of time trying to collect your valor trophies, or at least buy them.
The Short Version: In all the arguments about gold, I think its understood that its use creates such an advantage. There is really no evidence disputing that. Valor used to provide such evidence that Gold didn't win worlds, but I've never seen such proof in a 1K world. That was all from the 50K worlds where it didn't make much of a difference and people could grow. All the gold users say, "hey i can afford it so its ok", but I've yet to run into one that claims it has no effect on the outcome of the world and that they win because of skill.
Nor is anyone saying how that money should be spent. If you want to toss 300.00 a week on strippers, your choice, likewise want to by some pixels go for it, you earned it.
My wife and I each have 6 figure incomes, however that doesn't mean I agree with throwing money out the door on pixels, but I hold no grudge to those that do. I've even done it here and now. Disposable is Disposable.
The point, however, is that Gold simply creates such a disadvantage that there is no way to level the playing field in the TBS worlds. I've yet to meet a gold spender that disagrees with that statement. If you think otherwise, then refute it as I'm interested in understanding how you think that gold does not create an advantage. I'm not concerned about the arguments that avoid the question such as "Oh I'm rich, me spend gold, its fair cause I'm rich oh la la", Think about it, even 5 people in a guild of 25 with two LC and 3 barbs in the early days of the world are a force that's difficult to stop, when non-spenders are still building their forge lvl 2 because they cant farm barbs anymore.
The bottom line is that Gold takes the skill out of the game, everyone knows it, even the gold spenders. Join a new world and see how fast you guys lose without spending any gold, when competing against those that do. I've done it as have others. Its disarmingly night and day! I've paid my way to the top of the world once and while it was a blast, there was no skill. I won because I bought the resources to create an army that was able to steam roll. By the time others caught up, I was so far ahead it was ridiculous.
As for the 1K and 5K worlds, yes the smaller the world the more dramatic the difference between gold and no gold (thanks for helping make my point in a different way), I generally do play 5K worlds, but Valor in their infinite wisdom decided to put all of us in a 1K world and I can't control/change that. But take a peak at Gw1 and 2, any in the top 20-25 that didn't spend a significant sum of gold (or get carried by those that did, by which I mean the players that don't use gold or a lot of it but are given time to grow because the rest of their guild uses a ton of it, so they can sit back and relax).
And let's be honest here, this certainly isn't real life, I'm sure you have spent plenty of time trying to collect your valor trophies, or at least buy them.
The Short Version: In all the arguments about gold, I think its understood that its use creates such an advantage. There is really no evidence disputing that. Valor used to provide such evidence that Gold didn't win worlds, but I've never seen such proof in a 1K world. That was all from the 50K worlds where it didn't make much of a difference and people could grow. All the gold users say, "hey i can afford it so its ok", but I've yet to run into one that claims it has no effect on the outcome of the world and that they win because of skill.
LordFirefall wrote:$20 a week for 15 weeks equals $300. Most people spend more than that a week on coffee. Queue Extender and Resource Boost could take up a little less than half that, toss in a few Instant Spies here and there or Medics and Prestige, and $300 doesn't last too long. Many of us have full time jobs that pay well and this game is one of our few vices. I've got a doctor, an architect, a mason, a few builders, a few tech consultants and some sales guys in my guilds, so we do have money to spend when we want.
Even in 1k worlds with gold spenders, this game is still more balanced that comparable games I've played in the past. If you feel 1k worlds are too biased towards gold spenders, move to 5k worlds where you have a better chance. As for the GWs, I'm sure there's enough gold and skill to go around, to at least have a decent battle. This isn't like today's schools. Not everyone is going to get a trophy. Sorta like real life.
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LordFirefall
- Posts: 1002
- Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:15 am
- Location: Montival
I've never said it had no outcome. If it didn't have an outcome, people wouldn't use it. What I have said, is that its not impossible to defeat. Many gold users help their non-gold using guildmates out, which is a viable way to counter other gold users.
As far as my Valor trophies, I have Lion, GuildMaster, and Soldier. The latter was earned with real blood, sweat, and tears. The two former were certainly not purchased.
The piece that continues to elude those complaining about gold, is a solution that still allows Quark to make a profit and improve a game we love. In my experience, PwnLaw and others at Quark do listen to reasonable suggestions. However, a solution that kills a revenue stream and doesn't suggest an equally viable revenue stream isn't exactly a reasonable suggestion, is it?
As far as my Valor trophies, I have Lion, GuildMaster, and Soldier. The latter was earned with real blood, sweat, and tears. The two former were certainly not purchased.
The piece that continues to elude those complaining about gold, is a solution that still allows Quark to make a profit and improve a game we love. In my experience, PwnLaw and others at Quark do listen to reasonable suggestions. However, a solution that kills a revenue stream and doesn't suggest an equally viable revenue stream isn't exactly a reasonable suggestion, is it?
W95 Praetorian Guard Guild Leader
Kakao: LordFirefall or Firefall
Kakao: LordFirefall or Firefall
[quote="LordFirefall"]I've never said it had no outcome. If it didn't have an outcome, people wouldn't use it. What I have said, is that its not impossible to defeat.
That's exactly my point. The impact of gold is staggering in the small 1K worlds with no barbs. No discussion there, it is. It is clear as day and night, that gold has a major impact upon the game. True it is not impossible, but it is very difficult especially if other guilds are doing likewise which seems to be the trend these days.
Many gold users help their non-gold using guildmates out, which is a viable way to counter other gold users.
I mentioned this as well, however, you need a group of gold buyers in your guild to protect the non-buyers so they can grow. Very rarely these days does strategy have any role. "I bought big army, me go kill." The only way to counter gold is with gold. In the past, one could grow easily with a certain amount of time commitment and skill. Not so much these days.
As far as my Valor trophies, I have Lion, GuildMaster, and Soldier. The latter was earned with real blood, sweat, and tears. The two former were certainly not purchased.
As a side note, my comments about trophies were not directed at you personally. They were "in general" to the gold buying audience, as I have certainly seen some obtained, even in my own guilds, with the use of coin.
The piece that continues to elude those complaining about gold, is a solution that still allows Quark to make a profit and improve a game we love. In my experience, PwnLaw and others at Quark do listen to reasonable suggestions. However, a solution that kills a revenue stream and doesn't suggest an equally viable revenue stream isn't exactly a reasonable suggestion, is it?
I would agree with that statement, completely. I don't know what the solution is or should be, but I would hope that it is found sooner than later. I know a lot of people are leaving this game, or sticking to their old larger worlds that gold doesn't impact as much or as directly. I'm not complaining about Gold per se other than pointing out the obvious - it takes away the tactical strategy that used to exist and make this game fun. It is certainly fun to buy your way to the top, if able, but the point remains. I do agree, however, that Valor needs to make money to get paid. I have seen some interesting ideas floating around such as no gold worlds with paid entrance, perhaps with tickets like the speed worlds. I bet they would prove quite popular.
That's exactly my point. The impact of gold is staggering in the small 1K worlds with no barbs. No discussion there, it is. It is clear as day and night, that gold has a major impact upon the game. True it is not impossible, but it is very difficult especially if other guilds are doing likewise which seems to be the trend these days.
Many gold users help their non-gold using guildmates out, which is a viable way to counter other gold users.
I mentioned this as well, however, you need a group of gold buyers in your guild to protect the non-buyers so they can grow. Very rarely these days does strategy have any role. "I bought big army, me go kill." The only way to counter gold is with gold. In the past, one could grow easily with a certain amount of time commitment and skill. Not so much these days.
As far as my Valor trophies, I have Lion, GuildMaster, and Soldier. The latter was earned with real blood, sweat, and tears. The two former were certainly not purchased.
As a side note, my comments about trophies were not directed at you personally. They were "in general" to the gold buying audience, as I have certainly seen some obtained, even in my own guilds, with the use of coin.
The piece that continues to elude those complaining about gold, is a solution that still allows Quark to make a profit and improve a game we love. In my experience, PwnLaw and others at Quark do listen to reasonable suggestions. However, a solution that kills a revenue stream and doesn't suggest an equally viable revenue stream isn't exactly a reasonable suggestion, is it?
I would agree with that statement, completely. I don't know what the solution is or should be, but I would hope that it is found sooner than later. I know a lot of people are leaving this game, or sticking to their old larger worlds that gold doesn't impact as much or as directly. I'm not complaining about Gold per se other than pointing out the obvious - it takes away the tactical strategy that used to exist and make this game fun. It is certainly fun to buy your way to the top, if able, but the point remains. I do agree, however, that Valor needs to make money to get paid. I have seen some interesting ideas floating around such as no gold worlds with paid entrance, perhaps with tickets like the speed worlds. I bet they would prove quite popular.
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LordFirefall
- Posts: 1002
- Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:15 am
- Location: Montival
To say it doesn't take any strategy is not a true statement. Gold spenders helping non-gold spenders is a strategy. Trading resources at a 1:2 ratio is one way they can help and do. Using instant spy and clearing villages for a weaker player is also a strategy. In my guild, the rule is that everyone gets a second LC before others go for a third.
Either Orlor or PwnLaw responded a while ago about worlds having an entry fee. The inclination was no, and that it had been tried before. To me, you would have to set the entry fee such that it would still make what an average world makes. Otherwise, you would have players gravitate to them, instead of regular worlds. Or, Quark wouldnt make enough to cover operating costs.
I think it would make much more sense to set a reasonable cap on gold for the first month. $1000 in the first few days is ridiculous, but $75-100 a week wouldn't be unreasonable.
Either Orlor or PwnLaw responded a while ago about worlds having an entry fee. The inclination was no, and that it had been tried before. To me, you would have to set the entry fee such that it would still make what an average world makes. Otherwise, you would have players gravitate to them, instead of regular worlds. Or, Quark wouldnt make enough to cover operating costs.
I think it would make much more sense to set a reasonable cap on gold for the first month. $1000 in the first few days is ridiculous, but $75-100 a week wouldn't be unreasonable.
W95 Praetorian Guard Guild Leader
Kakao: LordFirefall or Firefall
Kakao: LordFirefall or Firefall
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DirtySouthATL
- Guardian
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:57 am
Firefall does exactly what we do............ In our guild, everyone gets a barb, then everyone gets a LC. The ones that spend the gold help the ones that don't. But let me stop you with your throwing around us not having strategy or the ability to actually play the game.
The players in my guild have been playing for a very very long time. Gold or not, we know how to play the game. We time our attacks to the second, we have ops on a daily basis. We aim to reset no less than 5 people a day. That my friend IS STRATEGY. Gold does NOT make a guild. It's the players in the guild working together that win worlds. GW2 seriously has me concerned for where this game is going. This is supposed to be the best of the best against each other.
Instead we get 9 guilds allied to each other in an attempt to take out my one guild. Okay that failed week 1. They showed their hand way too early. Now it's allowed our guild to grow in a way that truly isn't fair because instead of actually working together within your guild to grow *we gave you guys a solid 10 to grow properly* you spent all your time in a chat room bickering about who was going to attack who only leading to some VERY ignorant attacks. GOLD did not cause that. That was just pure, well, i don't know what to call it. But it wasn't strategy on the non gold users part.
I have other choice words I'd use but Orlor would delete it. I'm not bragging about the abuse some have taken in GW2. I'm simply stating that it takes A LOT to be a successful guild, and while Gold is spent, it's not done in OUR guild for anything other than helping our guild to grow. We can't take your city with gold. We have to actually attack it. That requires knowledge of how to play the game. Also, where a lot of guilds are going wrong is leaving inactives in the guild vs taking them out so they don't cause dead weight for others to have to continue to support. Do you realize the amount of cities we've seen with full resources at all hours of the day? Help your guild grow. Eat your own.
Stop whining. I've said it I don't know how many times. I don't win worlds with anything other than boosters and queue extender. I've been doing that WAY before these TBS worlds came out. Get back in game and keep your guild motivated. You think my guild likes it when I start yelling? No. You think my guild likes it when i start handing out lashings because I haven't seen one of them active for a couple of days? No. But do you think my guild appreciates the fact that I'm one of the first ones to throw myself in front of an incoming attack to save their city? Yup. You think they appreciate the fact that I handle diplo for them 12 hours a day everyday of the week. Yup. It allows them to play and not worry about what's going on. Maybe you need to start reassessing your crowns.
The players in my guild have been playing for a very very long time. Gold or not, we know how to play the game. We time our attacks to the second, we have ops on a daily basis. We aim to reset no less than 5 people a day. That my friend IS STRATEGY. Gold does NOT make a guild. It's the players in the guild working together that win worlds. GW2 seriously has me concerned for where this game is going. This is supposed to be the best of the best against each other.
Instead we get 9 guilds allied to each other in an attempt to take out my one guild. Okay that failed week 1. They showed their hand way too early. Now it's allowed our guild to grow in a way that truly isn't fair because instead of actually working together within your guild to grow *we gave you guys a solid 10 to grow properly* you spent all your time in a chat room bickering about who was going to attack who only leading to some VERY ignorant attacks. GOLD did not cause that. That was just pure, well, i don't know what to call it. But it wasn't strategy on the non gold users part.
I have other choice words I'd use but Orlor would delete it. I'm not bragging about the abuse some have taken in GW2. I'm simply stating that it takes A LOT to be a successful guild, and while Gold is spent, it's not done in OUR guild for anything other than helping our guild to grow. We can't take your city with gold. We have to actually attack it. That requires knowledge of how to play the game. Also, where a lot of guilds are going wrong is leaving inactives in the guild vs taking them out so they don't cause dead weight for others to have to continue to support. Do you realize the amount of cities we've seen with full resources at all hours of the day? Help your guild grow. Eat your own.
Stop whining. I've said it I don't know how many times. I don't win worlds with anything other than boosters and queue extender. I've been doing that WAY before these TBS worlds came out. Get back in game and keep your guild motivated. You think my guild likes it when I start yelling? No. You think my guild likes it when i start handing out lashings because I haven't seen one of them active for a couple of days? No. But do you think my guild appreciates the fact that I'm one of the first ones to throw myself in front of an incoming attack to save their city? Yup. You think they appreciate the fact that I handle diplo for them 12 hours a day everyday of the week. Yup. It allows them to play and not worry about what's going on. Maybe you need to start reassessing your crowns.
Valor is the eHarmony of the nerd world
LoL, where am I whining about anything. I'm simply pointing out the obvious. I've actually been in a guild with you and Asa. Great peeps, good skill, never once have I said otherwise. I actually respect a good portion of those players. All I am saying is Gold takes the overall strategy away. A monkey with a 10K bankroll will outplay you any day, period. Bicker and defend your strategy all you want. You have a serious leg up because you have heavy bankrolls. Even your description of your strategy says so. A guy that drops 250-500 on day one in a 1K world needs no strategy. Just pay to win. As for the jiberish about whatever your rambling about, I don't know I'm not involved in that. Haven't actually been attacked yet in the GW but I'm not really paying much attention as it was pretty clear from the start who was going to do what.
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DirtySouthATL
- Guardian
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:57 am
bkray1 wrote:LoL, where am I whining about anything. I'm simply pointing out the obvious. I've actually been in a guild with you and Asa. Great peeps, good skill, never once have I said otherwise. I actually respect a good portion of those players. All I am saying is Gold takes the overall strategy away. A monkey with a 10K bankroll will outplay you any day, period. Bicker and defend your strategy all you want. You have a serious leg up because you have heavy bankrolls. Even your description of your strategy says so. A guy that drops 250-500 on day one in a 1K world needs no strategy. Just pay to win. As for the jiberish about whatever your rambling about, I don't know I'm not involved in that. Haven't actually been attacked yet in the GW but I'm not really paying much attention as it was pretty clear from the start who was going to do what.
lol who are you in game......................... out with it!
Valor is the eHarmony of the nerd world
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LordFirefall
- Posts: 1002
- Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:15 am
- Location: Montival
bkray1 wrote:All I am saying is Gold takes the overall strategy away. A monkey with a 10K bankroll will outplay you any day, period. Bicker and defend your strategy all you want. You have a serious leg up because you have heavy bankrolls. Even your description of your strategy says so. A guy that drops 250-500 on day one in a 1K world needs no strategy. Just pay to win.
Gold, at the rate of $250-500 a day, if its the only player in the world, takes away the overall strategy. But I'm sorry, that is not happening at a high rate. You always have the option to move to another world, where its not happening. Gold or no, if the players of GW can't band together and take down a heavy gold spender, they probably didn't need to be there anyway. If any guild went into GW expecting not to spend money, they probably shouldn't have bothered either.
However, to expect a business to forgo income because you feel it isn't fair is unreasonable.
W95 Praetorian Guard Guild Leader
Kakao: LordFirefall or Firefall
Kakao: LordFirefall or Firefall
LordFirefall wrote: If any guild went into GW expecting not to spend money, they probably shouldn't have bothered either.
You are correct, and I bet you will be seeing a lot of this in the near future. People want to play games. As they can no longer play without "keeping up with the jones" I suspect a lot will move on. A lot already have. But don't call it strategy or skill. Anyone can buy an army.
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